Hi, You raise some good points which myself and J are largely aware of and have been trying to work out what the best solution for them could be over the last week. Firstly, second teams: there are pros and cons for either way of doing it (each club having a second team entered, whether they play at all or not, or each club having just one team entered for which results from 1st&2nd teams count towards). If there is one team per club then they will gain more points - remember, you always gain points by playing games - even if the second team plays and loses, and so the club gets more reward for being more active, so you think will be seeded higher. BUT, by fielding a 2nd team where a 1st team has played previously, the rank they play with is higher than it should be, and so the teams they play will get more points than they deserve, hence could end up in a disproportionately higher position. If each club has a first and a second team then when they field their weaker squad they will have a suitably lower rank, and so both them and their opposition will gain/lose a more representative amount of ranking points. How their 2nd teams will fare against the smaller clubs who always play under their 1st team's place is anyone's guess. First time running a league there will always be teething problems, which we can observe and account for next year. Also, how many clubs will really have enough active players to be able to pick and send a 1st and a 2nd team consistently? Not necessarily to the same event at the same time, but I imagine from event to event the players are bound to mix between 1st and 2nd teams, so when do you decide the team you're sending is of 1st team quality? They might lose and then will end up with a lower ranking than your slightly-more-active '2nd' team. Still, the situation can be imagined where the top clubs play real hard competitive matches, battling for the top spots, whilst also being able to send out a second team to battle against teams lower down in the rankings. In fact, it would be a shame for clubs to be worried about pitting a team with some freshers in against another team, for fear of giving away loads of points after their 1st team has given them a really high ranking. But, then again, if its a weak team they lose against then they won't be a threat to them on the ranking table (and would get them a few extra points anyway - although would give away loads due to the rank difference multiplier, and might mess up the lower part of the table somewhat), and if it's a strong team they're competing for position with then they wouldn't send a team of freshers in the first place. So, yeah, it's not a simple decision, but I (and I think J also) tend toward entering second teams for everyone into the table, all of them below the lowest ranked first team, and then people can choose whether they want to use it or not. Either way, it'd be good to go ahead with something concrete and then work out what could've been improved on for next time afterwards. Oh, and a clubs 1st & 2nd teams wouldn't be allowed play each other, or they could just do it every week. I'm leaving how these results get used for seedings up to J - you're right when you say they aren't going to be the most accurate reflection of clubs' level of play - that comes down to the tradeoff made between rewarding clubs for activity or having a table which most accurately reflects teams' skill, but for the purposes of this league I think it is well balanced at the moment. If you want to run some examples through the spreadsheet then you can play out any given scenario, I've spent quite a while doing that and have on the whole been happy with the results. I've uploaded a bunch of examples which play through a whole series of matches to http://www.seultimate.org/uni/league/scoring/ for anyone interested in seeing more of an overview of how it might work. Sorry for giving such a verbose response, being concise is not a virtue I have. Felix --------- Original Message -------- From: Neville Dubash To: seuniultimate@yahoogroups.com Subject: [seuniultimate] Re: Ladder League scoring system Date: 24/01/05 12:48 > > > > Hi, > > The ladder looks great. And I'm looking forward to playing some > different teams that we don't normal get much of a chance to play > against. I just wanted to ask a couple questions about the system - > before things really start going. > > The first is with regards to second teams - I know this is still being > discussed, but it might be relevant for the first set of games this > Wednesday (26th). If a first and second team are both entered at a > mini-tournament are the results from both teams counted towards > a single university ranking or are second teams going to be counted > as a separate team on the table? Also what happens if a first team > plays their own second team? If both teams count towards one > university ranking, you could potentially play your own second team > just to rack up points. > > What if only a second team is entered? The ranking might misrepresent > their skill level. > > Finally with regards to seeding for regionals, is the point system > going to be exclusively used for seeding, or some combination of > points and past year rankings, or a combination of points and SE > winter league results or some other mix? > > I would be a little apprehensive about just using the point system > exclusively without some way to accommodate special circumstances and > possible aberrations in the ladder, especially with it being so new > and fairly complex (to me at least). > > What if a team, that we all know to be good, for one reason or another > is unable to play any/many games and so based on points ends up low > down on the ladder? What about a team that has just played way > more games than any other team, and as a results has more points, but > might not really be the top team with regard level of play? We would > want a seeding that accurately reflects level of play, right? > > Maybe none of these situation will happen or maybe the ladder system > deals with it/smooths it out on it's own, but either way it would > still be good to know what happens in a given situation. > > Thanks, > > Neville. > > > > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:02:52 -0000 > > From: "Felix" <felix@seultimate.org> > > Subject: Ladder league scoring system > > > > Hey, > > I've written up a proposal of how points could be awarded for the > > ladder league games, check it out at > > http://www.seultimate.org/uni/league/scoring.html > > > > You can also see it working for yourself with > > http://www.seultimate.org/uni/league/Scoring%20system.xls > > > > Comments / suggestions / thoughts welcome as always. We're also > > working out what to do with regard to entering second teams, and how > > the initial rankings will be decided upon (making use of the se uni > > winter league results perhaps?). > > > > OK that is all for now, make your thoughts heard, > > > > Felix > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Give the gift of life to a sick child. > Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' > http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/v3UolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seuniultimate/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > seuniultimate-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > >